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Talk:Chakotay/archive
PNA-Incomplete There is a lot more to tell about Chakotay. This article needs to be expanded. -- Q 02:24, 26 Mar 2005 (EST) :I added the PNA template because this article (and most of the other Voyager character articles) have a lot of information cluttered together. This info needs to be formated better. --Galaxy001 00:12, 18 January 2006 (UTC) His rank Rank discussion, part I Many, many articles refer to him as Commander Chakotay, when his actual rank is Lieutenant Commander. If people are looking for something to do, they can check each of the pages listed under "What links here" for the error. Me, I'm going to bed. --Short Circuit 04:49, 1 Jul 2005 (UTC) :However, he was consistently referred to as simply "Commander" throughout the series (never once as "Lieutenant Commander Chakotay") and "commander" is an acceptable abbreviation for "lieutenant commander." Given the fact that Tuvok and Paris had inconsistent rank insignia as well, I think it's perfectly acceptable to use either. -- SmokeDetector47 // ''talk'' 23:00, 6 Jul 2005 (UTC) ::He was always referred to as Commander, so I think only certain links should be changed to Lieutenant Commander, not all of them. -AJHalliwell 23:02, 6 Jul 2005 (UTC) Well, in a spat of productivity, I went through and changed all the links I could find. Anywhere rank was listed, "Commander" was changed to "Lieutenant Commander." Anywhere where rank wasn't listed, well, I left it alone. I figured that full rank should be listed in formal writing. Chakotay was easy. Throughout his mentioned history, he was either Lieutenant Commander Chakotay, or he didn't have rank at all. Paris would be a little more difficult, as he was both promoted and demoted during VOY. IIRC, Tuvok's rank was constant through VOY, so it'd be a little easier to fix. And it probably ought to be fixed. Are we not all borg, striving for perfection? ;) --Short Circuit 03:42, 7 Jul 2005 (UTC) ::: Tuvok's rank insignia for the first few seasons was Lt. Commander but he was actually a Lieutenant, then he was promoted to Lt. Commander by the Captain, I don't remember the exact episode. Rank discussion, part II I am uncertain as to whether chakotay actually held the rank of Lieutenant Commander while serving as first officer on Voyager. If so then why is Lieutenant Commander Tuvok subordinate to him if they were the same rank. Also in the episode where species 8472 build a replica of San Franciso, one of the charachters (who appears as boothy) formally referes him as having the rank of Commander :Even within the rank levels one officer can be higher ranking than another, either by service time or by field of responsibility. Chakotay was made first officer, so he outranks Tuvok. Same on DS9: Major Kira was first officer and did outrank the other LCdr ... as for why his rank was always quoted wrong, I think it is the same story as with why the term Beta quadrant was never dropped -- Kobi - [[ :Kobi|( )]] 19:21, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC) :: He was Commander Chakotay, not Lieutenant Commander. I don't know where the believe that it was Lt. Commander came from... - Amol Kotay ::: His rank insignia. --Alan del Beccio 02:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC) ::::As Alan said in less words, the fact that he was a lieutenant commander comes from the fact that he was wearing provisional lieutenant commander rank insignia. --From Andoria with Love 02:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC) ::Well then back to the original point - why was his rank never given as Lieutenant Commander in the series? Know what I think? I think this is just one of the many continuity errors in the world of Star Trek. I say we mention his rank as Commander, but mention that hia rank insignia said Lt. Commander. Mention the possible continuity error, as well. Amol Kotay 02:27, 22 February 2006 (UTC) ::: I think not. Data and Worf were consistently referred to as "Commander" in both TNG and DS9 more than they ever were referring to their real rank of Lt. Commander. --Alan del Beccio 02:34, 22 February 2006 (UTC) ::Yes, but they were referred to as Lieutenant Commander when the crew roster was read by the computer, and by Picard a few times. Chakotay was always referred to as Commander, not once as Lt. Commander.Amol Kotay 02:36, 22 February 2006 (UTC) ::::That's because the proper way to refer to a lieutenant commander is "commander", hence the reasons the likes of Spock, Data, and Tuvok were referred to as "commander" while holding lieutenant commander ranks. The same goes for Chakotay. --From Andoria with Love 02:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC) ::But even when the crew roster was read/appeared on screen in Voyager, his rank was listed as Commander. I'm sure of it. I'll try to find a screen shot, because nobody will believe me otherwise. 00:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC) - Sorry, I wasn't logged in. That was me. Amol Kotay 00:17, 23 February 2006 (UTC) ::::Regardless, I can tell you now that some 170 episodes of seeing a lieutenant commander insignia takes prescedence over a screen shot seen in one episode for only a few seconds. You're gonna hafta find something a bit more definite that a screen shot. ;) --From Andoria with Love 01:03, 23 February 2006 (UTC) :::::Here is a screen grab from the credits, not just one episode, listing him as "Commander Chakotay." And yes, I realize the ranks were dropped from the credits after a while. Phoenix2basecamp 15:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC) ::::Yes, we're aware of that. However, since lieutenant commanders are often called commanders, that doesn't really prove anything. --From Andoria with Love 15:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC) ::::Let's also not forget the fact that the series bible lists him as a lieutenant commander. So, yeah. There ya go. ;) --From Andoria with Love 01:07, 23 February 2006 (UTC) ::::::About the episode , his service number is mentioned there as 47A612 ("47 alpha 612") by the replica of Boothby. How come that isn't mentioned on his article? --Patito 17:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC) ::: Regarding "In the Flesh" when he was identified by Boothby in the above reference, he was identified by rank as "Commander", versus "Lieutenant Commander". --Alan del Beccio 04:34, 24 February 2007 (UTC) ::::::: Simple- Lt. Commmanders and Commanders are both commonly addressed as Commander; just as Lt. and Lt jg are both referred to as Lieutenant! :::::::: Yeah I kind of wish there was something even more concrete. Honestly you all have better eyes than me because when I watched the show I thought all the maquis had on some "maquis" emblem but that it was all the same. I do overall agree with Chakotay being Lt. Commander due to the fact the previous XO was a Lt. Commander. I know that's not very logical reasoning but I like it. On the other hand I do respect the title shot too because during TNG they did strictly list the rank down to LT. J.G.'s. ::::::::: (reply to Shran's last comment above) But you're forgetting the fact that in ST:NG, in the credits Data and Worf are shown as Lt. Commanders. It's hard to just pass off Chakotay in the credits where he is referred to as Commander to it being the short form of Lt. Commander. If he was a Lt. Commander, it would have been indicated in the credits. It's an issue of a continuity error. 22:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC) :::: I didn't forget that, actually. Since, IIRC, B'Elanna Torres was credited as "Lieutenant B'Elanna Torres" when she was, in fact, a Lieutenant, j.g., that hardly proves anything, either. For the record, both Geordi and Worf were credited as lieutenant j.g.'s during TNG's first season. --From Andoria with Love 05:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC) :::::::::: I find it annoying that the writers would do this. Lieutenant Commanders Data, La Forge, Troi, Worf, Dax, and Tuvok were all explicitly referred to by the full rank at one point or another, so why not Chakotay? Yes, I know commander is short for lieutenant commander, but if the writers truly intended for him not to be a full commander, then why not make that point at least once? I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't really know what they were doing. After all, Lieutenant Tuvok wore the pips of a lieutenant commander for many episodes before they got it right (side note: How do the actors themselves not notice this at the time? I mean, I know it's just a job to a lot of them, but still). What if, once filming began, the writers decided Chakotay was indeed a full commander and just never bothered to fix Robert Beltran's costume (those provisional ranks were very difficult to see, anyway)? At any rate, it's a lot easier for me to buy that it was a production error than the fact that no one—ever—referred to him by his full rank. LCARS 18:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC) ::::I hate to reopen this can of worms, but in , the false Boothby specifically said "Chakotay. Rank: Commander. Starfleet service number 47 alpha 6-1-2. First officer, USS Voyager." I'm thinking they started Chakotay out as a lt. cmdr. but then settled on him being a full commander, but didn't bother changing his rank insignia. --From Andoria with Love 22:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC) :Not that my opinion matters a whole lot, however it seems to me that it's counter-intuitive to assume that just because you don't see that rank insignia anywhere else in the series, it's for a rank other than it seems obviously to be. The insignia itself is 2 golden, 1 black. That is clearly the 'Lt. Cmdr.' Rank, the only thing that makes it different from a standard ltcmdr is the Provisional status. And one could go an extended period of time as a Ltcmdr and never be referred as such, only hearing 'commander.' These two facts, coupled with the extremely small amount of evidence to the contrary (Two distinct instances) seems to me that he was a Lt. Cmdr. The credits and the terminal are both very good examples of very poor oversight in product, imo. 00:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC) Rank discussion, part III As far as I'm concerned, and as far as any sane person is concerned, Chakotay was a commander.The only evidence he was a lieutenant commander is the fact that he was wearing a rank insignia that was never worn by any other character of any rank but which apparently is supposed to mean he was a lieutenant commander.Go figure.I'll add the mass of conflicting evidence to the article and leave other people to sort it out.(And for the record, both Geordi and Worf were credited simply as "lieutenants" on the first series of Next Generation whereas Data was credited as "lieutenant commander".)– Skteosk 21:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC) :Good for you? --OuroborosCobra talk 04:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC) ::I have to agree. There are too many situations where he should have been referred to as Lieutenant Commander (if that was his real rank) and he wasn't. "In the Flesh" makes him out to be a Commander, he is not once referred to as a Lieutenant Commander in the entire run of Voyager, and on away missions it is generally accepted to use full ranks to introduce crew members, just as Picard did to Data or La Forge when introducing them to visitors/aliens etc. I think dialog should take precedence over a simple wardrobe error in Chakotay's rank. TrekFan 00:54, 30 May 2008 (UTC) ::: Every time his rank is mentioned, he's referred to as "Commander", and I think he is meant to be a Commander. Most people who watch the show aren't going to know about rank insignias etc. so most people are going to think he's a Commander. They probably made a mistake with the pips - I mean who, apart from the obsessed, actually (a) counts the pips, or (b) actually knows what they mean? Avengah 03:40, 30 May 2008 (UTC) ::::Okay, so given all of the above, is there a compelling reason to continue to list him as a lieutenant commander in the article? Is there any canonical source (interview, anything) produced after the pilot episode that identifies his rank as lieutenant commander? What did Robert Beltran think when he was actually playing the guy? It seems that all of the writers, actors, and producers—with the lone exception of the costume department, which frequently made errors in this area—consider Chakotay a full commander. Moreover, the "lieutenant commanders are also called commander" argument just doesn't hold enough water, simply because lieutenant commanders are also called "lieutenant commander" on occasion. With regard to that, I think TrekFan's "There are too many situations" argument above says it all. — LCARS 22:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC) : The insignia was used after the pilot, the pilot is just as much canon as everything else, and all later references to him verbally as "commander" are not counter to him being a Lt Commander, since the proper term of address for a Lt Commander is, you guessed it, commander. --OuroborosCobra talk 22:32, 17 June 2008 (UTC) ::::: An in depth look at his rank – Before I begin this, may I say that I mean no disrespect to anyone here. I am not trying to attack anyone. This is solely my opinion on what I see. So here goes... ::::: Instead of joining in on what amounted to a "yeah-huh" vs. "nuh-uhh" argument above, I thought I would do a little research of my own. So here is what I found. ::::: *'Item the First:' Memory Alpha's policy. At this link here, it lists the valid resources in descending orders of presidents. What is spoken, what is seen, what is heard. Let us take them one by one. ::::: *'Item the Second:' What is spoken is "Commander." It has been said, at great length, that "Commander" is a perfectly fine and dandy way to address a "Lieutenant Commander." Data, Worf, ad nauseum have all been referred to as both "Commander" and "Lieutenant Commander." Some of you may take this to mean that Chakotay is a Commander by virtue of never being referred to as a Lieutenant Commander. Could go either way, in my opinion. So, here we have a conundrum. Is he a Commander or is he a Lieutenant Commander. Read on. ::::: *'Item the Third:' Going back to policy, we now come to what is seen. What is seen. For those of you in the Lieutenant Commander camp, I present the following images. From in 2371, using my meager Microsoft Photo Editor, I see that his insignia is two gold bars and a black bar. This indicates a Lieutenant Commander. (Image here) (For those of you not familiar, the Maquis who were granted officer's rank aboard used a provisional insignia that converted the "pips" or circles into bars.) Next, in the episode of in 2374 we also see two gold bars and one black. (Image here). Later in , at the end of the run, we see two gold bars and one black. ( ]) So this would seem to confirm that the good first officer is indeed a Lieutenant Commander. But, to throw a monkey wrench into the work, we have this image here. Even looking at this without zooming in, I can see that Chakotay is listed as a "CMDR" (He is forth from the bottom on the left hand list, right under Captain Janeway.) Proponents of the "Lt. Cmdr."'s are called "Cmdr" may rise up, but I have to shoot you down. Elsewhere on this list are other personnel listed as "LT CMDR." ::::: Now we have several valid resources with some of them favoring full Commander whilst some of them favor Lieutenant Commander. What to do. Well, we go back to our policies. Right on over here we have policy that shows us how to deal with discrepancies in canon resources. To quote: "In writing articles archivists should be guided by the principle that a valid resource with a higher precedence can (but does not have to) be given slightly greater evidentiary weight for purposes of writing the article from a Trek universe standpoint than the valid resource with a lower precedence. ::::: So to what do we give our precedent? Well, in my opinion (and I can't stress that enough, that this is my opinion) seven seasons of Chakotay wearing the rank of Lieutenant Commander seems to trump the few references that we have of him being a full Commander. ::::: Now, for those proponents of "full Commander", please don't loose hope. In the same policy link listed two paragraphs above, it says: "The conflict still needs to be noted in the article, though. What we have in Chakotay's fulfills the letter of the policy, but may not fulfill the spirit of the policy. The letter of the policy that I have quoted here seems to be a throw-away line to me. While I, personally, support Lieutenant Commander Chakotay, I would fully support a slightly (I'll say that again slightly) expanded paragraph on the discrepancy. ::::: In closing, the writers and actors could have saved us a lot of stress and headache if they could have just said he was a Lieutenant Commander or given him the right insignia for a Commander, depending on what they really wanted. :-) ----[[User:Mainphramephreak| Willie]][[User Talk:Mainphramephreak| LLAP]] 02:14, 18 June 2008 (UTC) ::Well, IMO, I have to go with the hundreds of references in dialog saying he is a 'Commander' along with that computer graphic. As for his rank insignia, maybe nobody noticed for seven years? :) -- TrekFan 00:30, 27 June 2008 (UTC) :::::: You know what I want to know? Where in canon was it ever stated "This thing is a rank insignia, it is the rank insignia of a Lieutenant Commander, and ONLY a Lieutenant Commander, and is never worn on the uniform of anyone who is not a Lieutenant Commander, therefore if you see somebody with this thing on their uniform it carries weight to contradict that person's vocally stated Rank of Commander"? --TribbleFurSuit 02:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC) :Ask anyone in the military whether a Major ever wears the rank insignia of a Captain. Ever. You'll get your answer. --OuroborosCobra talk 03:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC) :::::::I hate to add flames to the fire...but I seriously don't know. How do we know what rank his pins on his neck signify? I'm sure it wasn't mentioned on the show. So it must be in production notes or something. – Morder 04:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC) :That isn't the question being asked here. The question asked is whether one set of insignia can be used for two ranks. The answer is no. --OuroborosCobra talk 04:27, 27 June 2008 (UTC) ::::::::I for one think the page should stay the way it is, with lt. commander as canon. O'Brien also has a similar case with him being a scpo by rank insignia and a cpo by dialogue. And we go with what the insignia is supposed to represent according to permitted resources. --Pseudohuman 05:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC) ::::::What about the rest of what I asked?"it is the rank insignia of a Lieutenant Commander". The only citation I've seen anywhere for this is "the series bible", as Shran says above. That's not an onscreen source. Does one exist or not? Also, is it true that Chakotay was the only person ever seen with it on, as Skteosk says above? --TribbleFurSuit 01:59, 28 June 2008 (UTC) ::::::::: Maybe we should approach this as the USS Melbourne situation was handled- strip the rank out of the article and note the difficulties with this issue in the background section. Just something to think about.--31dot 02:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC) ::::::And for the record, I was NOT asking if both Cmdrs and Lt. Cmdrs wore the same rank isignia. --TribbleFurSuit 02:10, 28 June 2008 (UTC) :::::::::: Dialogue pulled up zero references for "Lieutenant Commander Chakotay" and about 80 references to "Commander Chakotay". The Okudagram from "The Killing Game" also states "CMDR CHAKOTAY". With no so-called "canon" evidence to support the Lt. Cmdr. reference, it seems rather clear what his rank was. --Alan 03:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC) ::::::So if he's a Commander then this is not a Lt. Cmdr insignia, provisional or otherwise. If that is not a Lt. Cmdr. insignia, then it blows away the '''only' "evidence" presented here that Chakotay's a Lt. Cmdr and not a Commander. It was a circular argument all the time. He's a Commander. QED. ::::::--TribbleFurSuit 04:10, 28 June 2008 (UTC) ::::::Also, it's not as simple as taking 31dot's suggestion to ''"strip the rank out of the article and note the difficulties with this issue in the background section". Here's a list of articles that contain material which depends on Chakotay's canonical rank: Lieutenant commander, Starfleet ranks, Main characters by rank, Starfleet uniform (late 2360s-early 2370s), 2371, 2368, First officer, USS Voyager personnel, Valerie Archer, Maquis, Robert Beltran, State of Flux (episode), Military parlance, Unity (episode), Juggernaut (episode), American Indian, Ramuran, Nothing Human (episode), Persistence of Vision (episode), Equinox (episode), Boothby, In the Flesh (episode), Captain's log, USS Voyager, 2377, Con artist, Democracy, Borg-Species 8472 War, Alliances (episode), Graviton ellipse, Cooperative, Neelix, Hogan, Timeless (episode), Scientific Method (episode), Kazon-Nistrim, Survival Instinct (episode), Cray, Message in a Bottle (episode), Collective (episode), Henley, Bio-mimetic gel, Joseph Carey, Seven of Nine, USS Intrepid (NCC-74600), Thirty Days (episode), 11:59 (episode), Animazine, Voth, Voth, Ranking officer, Baxial, Omicron radiation, March (month), Hanon IV, Ovion, Dark Frontier (episode), The Gift (episode), William Telfer, Kenneth Dalby, Vori, Kradin, CCG: Captain's Log, Fox, Marie Kaplan, Sky Spirit, , and of course File:Vgr ltcmdr.png. How about firing up the ol' DelBeccio-Bot? --TribbleFurSuit 00:19, 29 June 2008 (UTC) :::::::::: Heh, you could have just said that to start with and saved your time making a list. --Alan 00:41, 29 June 2008 (UTC) ::::::Nothing else going on down here in Mama's basement. Just kidding, I wanted to make an impression regarding how far this thing has spread. ::::::Actually, I have questions, since, Cobra, it seemed to me like you missed the point of what I was saying so widely. But maybe I actually missed yours, instead. Did you see someone besides Chakotay wearing the same insignia? Or, did you see anybody, anywhere, ever, wearing the (imaginary, I think) insignia that is claimed to be that of "provisional commander"? If so, such facts would be extremely relevant but are so far un-discussed. I don't imagine that persons of different ranks would bear the same insignia. That's where you got me all wrong. All I imagine is that the insignia we have seen on screen is supposed to reflect Chakotay's rank (and nobody else's, unless I'm ignorant), and what that rank is, is what we've all been talking about here. So, if you have some information about another officer's insignia, and if such info would shed light on what rank Chakotay's insignia represents, I sure would love to hear about it, because that's where it sounds like you're coming from by talking about a differently-ranked person wearing the same insignia. I'm hungry for any evidence that the insignia does NOT represent the rank of Commander. So far, Chakotay is the only data point I have, and, evidence does not point to his being Lieutenant Commander. The insignia's meaning should come from character evidence, it shouldn't be done the other way around, inventing character evidence by assuming the insignia's meaning. ::::::--TribbleFurSuit 00:53, 29 June 2008 (UTC) :::::::::It was just a thought- trying to make peace. :) I wasn't necessarily advocating it.--31dot 01:19, 29 June 2008 (UTC) :::::::::: "Fixed" 101 references. --Alan 01:19, 29 June 2008 (UTC) ::::::Wow, I was actually being rhetorical, I wouldn't have guessed that everybody was ready for that yet. Anyway, what about this (File:Vgr ltcmdr.png)? Shall I go over there and Talk: about how the first is mis-labeled and the second is fannery, not canon? Or should the discussion be kept in one place? --TribbleFurSuit 01:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC) :::::::::: It really only made sense to do it. As has been clearly revealed in our always abusively long and ever pointlessly circular discussion: he was never referred to as a "lt cmdr" in canon. The credits, dialog, and the (don't blink) okudagram all say "cmdr" and some background information that basically contradicts it is the only thing that basically says otherwise. As far as the pip conflict (which really should be its own separate bloated discussion from this one) I made a note of it in the background section of this article, but as far as the "degree of canon" goes for the pip, you'd have to check with the Star Trek Encyclopedia or Captainmike, though I suspect the former has a lot to do with the actions of the latter, but I can't verify that. --Alan 01:42, 29 June 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::: Seems to be a closed issue here, but as a real Lieutenant Commander, I can say it is very possibly that one could go seven years being called simply as a Commander. On correspondence it is another thing, i.e. letters and memos would indeed read Lieutenant Commander or LCDR. As for the C-Man, I think he was a Lieutenant Commander granted some kind of brevet to full Commander which would explain the insignia versus the constant verbal and okogram data as a Commander. But then, Voyager was never good about insignia. Tuvok and Paris changed insignia mid-1st season due to a costume screwup and not to mention that Torres, by her insignia, was in fact a lieutenant junior grade. But as for this article, leave it as Commander. Thats what everyone seems to want to do and is probably a good idea. -FC 13:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::::In the opening credits Lieutenant Junior Grades such as B'Elanna Torres are not referred as Junior Grades therefore the rank in the credit could be considered form of salutation rather than actual rank. Additionally in the opening episode of Star Trek: Voyager the first officer was Lieutenant Commander Cavitt, Chakotay would likely not have been given a higher rank. In terms of Tuvok still calling Chakotay sir after his promotion to Lieutenant Commander one can rationalize it by one of two methods, one Chakotay was commissioned as a Lieutenant Commander first and would still have seniority (as demonstrated between B'Elanna Torres and Tom Paris who were the same rank but Paris was senior by two days) or by virtue of their positions aboard ship first officer versus tactical officer. :::::::::::: 01:32, August 3, 2013 (UTC) :::::::::::::Again, directing attention to TNG credits where lieutenant junior grades are referred to as lieutenants and lieutenant commanders are referred to as lieutenant commanders. The official line seems to be that Chakotay was restored to the rank he held prior to his resignation (although this is not made clear on screen), which makes Cavit's rank immaterial. (Incidentally, Janeway introduces her original first officer who is on screen for about ten minutes as lieutenant commander. She always refers to Chakotay simply as commander. Ponder that.) Skteosk (talk) 00:30, December 18, 2013 (UTC) Often in the military if someone is filling a vacancy on a provisiaonry level they are still referred to the provisionary title. I was once in a unit where a Staff Sergeant was in a 1st Sergeant roll so he was still called 1st Sergeant. So Commanders being the XO and Chakoty being the XO so argo Commander. -- 05:55, March 29, 2014 (UTC)OD Chakotay must be a lieutenant commander in the series. Reasoning - when Voyager returned to Earth, Starfleet promoted all officers by two levels for their service in the Delta Quadrant; Harry Kim was promoted to Lieutenant, Vorik was promoted to Lieutenant... and Chakotay was promoted to Captain. Captain is two ranks higher than Lieutenant commander, and only one rank higher than full Commander. There are seventeen brown loaves of bread (talk) 07:16, June 30, 2014 (UTC) Rank Discussion: Some Speculation Much as we fans would like to have a consistent story, TV shows are put together by a huge crowd of people who are sometimes working at cross purposes. That often leads to inconsistencies. I think that's how Chakotay ended up having one rank but wearing the insignia of another. Here's my theory: somebody decided that it was lame that all Star Fleet commanding officers have the same rank. That doesn't happen in real-world navies, where bigger vessels have higher-ranking commanding officers. Only the biggest warships have "captains" whose actual rank is Captain. In the U.S Navy, a destroyer is typically commanded by a Commander. That person may be addressed as "Captain" but that's a title, not a rank. The first officer is typically a Lt. Commander. Now, when they were inventing the imaginary starship Voyager, they could have decided that it was the Star Fleet equivalent of a destroyer, with CDR Janeway as CO and provisional LCDR Chakotay as XO. Then somebody else came along and decided having Janeway both a "Captain" and a "Commander" was too confusing. Mass media hates confusing details, and so that person won the argument: Janeway had to be a Captain, period. To be consistent, her XO had to be a Commander. At this point they could change Janeway's insignia just by attaching another pip. But giving Chakotay a new rank insignia would have meant manufacturing it. If they were just about to start shooting, there wouldn't have been time. I also believe that something like this happened when Roddenberry was putting together TOS. Note that Kirk's sleeves have two solid lines with a broken line in between. That looks suspiciously like a futuristic version of the USN insignia for a LCDR. Furthermore, he addresses Spock as "Mister". Perhaps Star Fleet customs are different, but in the USN a "Mister" is a LCDR or lower. So probably Roddenbery originally meant for the Enterprise to be the future equivalent of a Destroyer or Frigate. But that would have been too confusing --Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 01:23, August 11, 2013 (UTC) :Thanks, but article talk pages are not for simply posting our personal theories or speculation. 31dot (talk) 01:52, August 11, 2013 (UTC) How is this different from previous discussion of this topic? --Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 02:52, August 11, 2013 (UTC) :As I said, this page is not for simply posting personal theories or speculation, unless you are proposing a change to the article. The above discussions were done in the context of changing this article. If that is indeed what you are doing, I apologize, it just didn't seem clear. 31dot (talk) 09:34, August 11, 2013 (UTC) Kolopak's Death In the first paragraph under Other Family, it seems to imply that Kolopak died when Chakotay was on , so somewhere between 2371 and 2374. Later, and in Kolopak's article, it suggests that Kolopak died while Chakotay was still in Starfleet. It also suggests, that Kolopak's death and Chakotay's joining the Maquis occurred in 2371, although it probably should be earlier. He is seen practicing the Pakra in 2372, so clearly Kolopak had to have died prior to the Delta Quadrant sojourn. I'm hesitant because I haven't seen the episode that Kolopak's "death" was mentioned.--Tim Thomason 21:14, 10 Aug 2005 (UTC) His visions I was wondering about this the other day... Are his "visions" supposed to be real, the way the Prophets' visions are? Or just real to him, as in they're not really "spirits" and whatnot? I'm not familiar enough with the series, but I'd like to think it's the letter. --Vedek Dukat Talk | Duty Roster 17:30, 25 Nov 2005 (UTC) :I'd also like to know what exactly he says when he enters his visions. Since I can only see it on Spike's reruns, I run the risk of missing it next time one of those episodes airs. 15:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC) ::* "Akoochimoyah. I am far from the sacred places of our grandfathers. I am far from the bones of our people." :: There's more, I think. Anyone else got the rest of it? :: His visions refer to his Native American culture...its a form of meditation or spiritual enlightenment. He explains it somewhat when he teaches Janeway how to find her animal guide using an "Akoonaha" as opposed to psychotropic herbs which is what was traditionally used--Lu His name Birth name At some point during the series, I believe it was revealed that Chakotay's birth name was Amol Kotay, and that he took the name Chakotay when he joined the Maquis or something like that. Can anybody confirm this? Amol Kotay 02:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC) :Amal Kotay was the name that Chakotay assumed when he was operating undercover on Quarra in . He didn't say anything about that being his birth name, it's just an alias. --Jörg 02:41, 22 February 2006 (UTC) Ok. Guess I was wrong. So is the Chakotay article on Wikipedia as well... Alias from Workforce No one ever mentions his given name from the episode "Workforce." :That is because Amal Kotay is just an alias. --Jörg 08:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC) I was under the impression it was his real name since even 7 of 9 was known as "Annika" and he was trying to get through to Janeway -- StarCat Chakotay's first name is "Fred". He mentions it in this interview: :He also mentions that Chakotay is "homosexual" in that interview, and that the tattoo is Charles Manson's design. Come on. SwishyGarak 08:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC) His tattoo Tattoo contradiction I think I might have caught a contradiction here, this article says that he got his tat after leaving Starfleet to join the Maquis and that he had it in Starfleet while boxing and was known as the "tattooed terror". Jaf 03:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)Jaf :You are right. He can't be the tattooed terror in Starfleet if he got his tattoo after he left to join the Maquis. What are canonical references to these?Mr.gn 16:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC) ::I am working from memory, but I believe Chakotay tells the Sky Spirits (in Tattoo) he got his tat after his father died, to honor him- thus he got around the time he left Starfleet. In , B'Elana refers to him as the "tattooed terror", during a "ribbing session" in the mess hall. It is probably not, in context, a name he enjoyed at Starfleet. :::Maybe he has more than one tattoo. Tattoo size The article says that the full extent of Chakotay's tattoo was shown in that ep. Anybody have a screencap for Chakotay's article? --StAkAr Karnak 01:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC) I've added a pic of the tattoo as requested, but someone may need to nudge it away from the edit buttons... --Dishycourier 02:26, July 25, 2010 (UTC) Tribe / Ethnicity / Ancestry Is there any verifiable source that gives what Native American tribe Chakotay is from? --Tuvok^Talk| 10:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC) :I recall in an episode of voyager, during a conversation between Janeway and Chakotay, Chakotay specifically referred to his Maori ancestors who had navigated across the pacific. I have no idea which episode this was. I believe Janeway and Chakotay were alone on the bridge at the time, or perhaps in quarters or a viewing room. Perhaps he just referred to his 'ancestors who had crossed the pacific', and I remembered an assumption I made at the time. Can anyone identify that episode and the actual dialog? ::The only problem is that the Maori are not native Americans? I always presumed he was Cherokee for some reason, but he appears to be some generic all-purpose native American...-RayBell (talk) 12:58, May 4, 2015 (UTC) Isn't he supposed to be a Mexican native? I thought it was made clear that he was descended from Aztecs and the "rubber tree people" of the South American rainforest. 00:27, August 6, 2016 (UTC) :Some of the tribes in the SW USA moved up from what is now Mexico. Apaches are one of the notable ones. Also a lot of Mexican immigrants have native ancestry.-RayBell (talk) 11:50, August 6, 2016 (UTC) Wall hanging. A picayune question. I believe Chakotay in his quarters had a tapestry or hanging that was a family heirloom. It was quite large a about a yard square IIRC. What I want to know is where he was keeping that he first beamed over to Voyager when his ship was destroyed?!--Great Bear 19:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC) :When questions like this arise, I believe the standard explanation is "A wizard (Q?)did it. :P -- :: Or he replicated it... --Alan del Beccio 23:28, 1 April 2007 (UTC) Diet Inconsistencies In one episode, Neelix specifically states that Chakotay is a vegetarian and Seska says in an early episode that Chakotay's favorite meal is mushroom soup. I agree with this as stated. However, there are some canon inconsistencies that should be pointed out. For example, Janeway, in her many dinners with Chakotay, attempts to make "pot roast" and burns it. She would not have made the attempt if he was unable to eat it. The second, and, to me, most glaring example is that he brings "roasted chicken" to Seven of Nine's quarters during her holo-fantasy. In her efforts to achieve perfection, she would have never programmed his perameters to bring a meat dish if he was a vegetarian. Does Chakotay ever say that he is a vegetarian? And, if so, where? --Moms2398 02:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC) :Chakotay mentions he's a vegetarian in and Neelix says so too in . Seems Janeway simply forgot about that. --Jörg 06:09, 11 October 2007 (UTC) ::Not at all. Its far more simple. No one on Voyager eats meat, unless they specifically trade for it. Even a vegan would have a difficult time finding difficulties with eating what basically amounts to digitally assembled proteins, constructed in a way as such to resemble to look, and taste of a meat product. Vegans for example would eat " " for example. Chakotay believes the consumption of animal flesh is wrong. Not the consumption of resequenced proteins.Hossrex 06:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC) I know this is waaaaay off topic but in unforgetable we find out that chakotay hates carrots, fried food upsets his stomach, and he wont eat pudding because he thinks its slimey. Captain Sulu I've just cleaned you the background note under Captain Sulu, as the existing sentence order was confusing. On a more general note, should this note even really be here? I mean it's all fan speculation really. For all we know there could be a Captain Sulu who is of no relation to either of the two Sulu's we know. Maybe a better note would be "It is uncertain/unknown which Captain this refers to". Tanky 04:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC) Year of his Maquis joining I thought the Maquis was formed in 2370 not 2368. Did Chakotay join the Maquis in 2368 or in 2370, someone tell me which is right.--TyphussJediVader 02:52, August 17, 2010 (UTC) : Where does it say they were formed in 2370? The way I understand, the treaty was signed in 2370 but the fighting and resisting was going on before the official signing of the treaty. I am not into DS9 but I think before the Cardassians succeeded in seizing those regions they first had to drive some natives away - like Chakotay's tribe. – Distantlycharmed 03:09, August 17, 2010 (UTC) ::As far as I remember, the sequence of events in TNG and DS9 is presented as thus: In 2370, the Federation and Cardassians decide on the border between their two powers and begin relocating colonists. Chakotay's father can't have been killed resisting relocating prior to that point because it hadn't started. After the destruction of the Bok'Nor later that year, an organisation calling themselves the Maquis claim responsibility. Kira delivers the line as if no-one has heard of the Maquis up to that point and Nechayev also acts as though she's only just been informed of their existence. So where the 2368 date came from is anyone's guess. I can only assume the weirdly precise date of Chakotay's resignation comes from either a series bible or an Okudagram and ignores what is said on screen. Skteosk (talk) 00:25, December 18, 2013 (UTC) Dates with Seven This page's description of the episode "Human Error" says that the picnic date in the cargo bay and the dinner date where Seven transports into Chakotay's quarters with flowers were among Seven's holodeck experiments. "Human Error" does include a dinner date, as well as a piano lesson, but the picnic and flowers were actually real dates from the last episode, "Endgame". After Voyagers Return Does anyone have any speculation as to what happened with the crew members that originally were Maquis? I expect perhaps they were pardoned having survived the journey. Regards, CBC 19:53, April 18, 2011 (UTC) :You should read the novels, as the last few take place after "Endgame". - 19:53, April 18, 2011 (UTC) ::Everyone lived happily ever after, except for Harry Kim. Libby dumped him. Poor, dumb Harry. --OuroborosCobra talk 15:05, April 19, 2011 (UTC) Chakotay's mother I know Kolopak mentioned Chakotay's mother in Basics, Part 1, but was she ever referred to by name at all? I seem to have some memory of her dying during Chakotay's birth but I could well be mistaken.--Archer4real 12:10, January 6, 2012 (UTC) Height Much like this discussion, I'm wondering where Chakotay's height was given in canon. If it's just Robert Beltran's height, it should be removed as we did with Picard. 31dot 01:49, March 28, 2012 (UTC) :So um, why is his height in there? If it aint in canon, remove right? :) Distantlycharmed (talk) 00:46, October 3, 2012 (UTC) Done. :) 31dot (talk) 01:31, October 3, 2012 (UTC)